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Stephen Kinzer: “America's role is not as pure as we like to be told.”

Featuring: Stephen Kinzer, Critic of interventionist U.S. foreign policy | Senior Fellow at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs | National

Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War

Published January 10, 2023 | Video Starts at 1:09:57

And that gives you a real different perspective. It's not so sanitary and it's not so clear cut. Anybody who's been out in the world will tell you that America's role is not as pure as we like to be told. On the other hand, it never ceases to impress me how, despite all our sins, wherever you go in the world, people have a tremendous admiration for the United States for what we've accomplished. (1:09:57–1:10:02)

CLAIM

Asserts that the U.S. foreign policy role is not as virtuous as often portrayed.

This is an excerpt from a raw transcript. The assertions have not been audited or verified. Tap the video to view the source footage and understand the context.

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Stephen Kinzer

“Every single Democrat in the Senate and every single Democrat in the House all voted for the aid to Ukraine.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 12:23-12:32
“There were only 57 members of the House and 11 members of the Senate who voted against that aid package, and every single one was a…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 12:41-12:52
“China has just arrived in Iraq and announced that they're going to build a thousand schools.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 19:29-19:34
“China has built 100 seaports in Africa.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 19:34-19:37
“The number of bases we have around the world, which is something like 800, is quite excessive.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 30:51-30:58
“One of the very first CIA operations in 1948 was a massive effort to interfere in the first major election held in Europe. That was in…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 51:44-51:56
“The United States was then the decisive factor in every Italian election for the next 25 years.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 52:42-52:49
“We did the exact same thing in Japan, where we effectively founded the Liberal Democratic Party, funded it, chose its leaders, and had them…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 52:48-53:02
“Right before the election, Yeltsin received hundreds of a huge pile, billions of dollars from the International Monetary Fund to distribute…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 53:28-53:41
“500,000 Iraqi babies and children had died as a result of U.S. sanctions.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:03:54-1:03:54
“We have about 10,000 sanctions out there.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:03:59-1:04:01
“When you violently intervene in the affairs of another country, you're doing something like releasing a wheel at the top of a hill.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 00:18-00:25
“Iran is a perfect example of [the consequences of violent intervention in another country's affairs].”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 00:29-00:31
“We have such a weak bench [of presidential candidates].”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 06:55-07:01
“Most members of Congress don't even want to answer questions on foreign policy.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 07:40-07:45
“The debate on American foreign policy is conducted within a very narrow spectrum.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 08:17-08:23
“There's an intellectual no fly zone around not just Ukraine, but China, Taiwan, many of our other foreign policy issues.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 08:51-09:00
“There's a real cleavage, growing. I think there is a growing sense in the United States that our constant reliance on aggressive…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 09:34-09:50
“His [the Shah's] repression produced the explosion of the late 1970s, what we call the Islamic Revolution.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 11:40-27:20
“Americans are very compassionate people. Yes, we hate the idea that anybody is suffering anywhere. Our leaders know this about us and they…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 16:37-16:51
“We want leaders of other countries to put the interests of the United States ahead of their own countries.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 18:32-18:38
“There's now one Olympic level world class stadium in Central America. It's in Costa Rica. Who built it? The Chinese.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 19:38-19:47
“Think of the number of countries China has bombed in the last 25 years. None.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 19:46-19:51
“The United States and Britain joined together [in the early 1950s] to overthrow the democratic government of Iran.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 26:08-26:11
“A CIA officer was sent with a lot of money to Iran in the summer of 1953.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 26:10-26:17
“After just three weeks [in Iran], he [the CIA officer] had managed to overthrow not only the leader of the government, but the democratic…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 26:17-26:25
“The Shah ruled for 25 years with increasing repression.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 27:09-27:14
“That revolution brought to power a clique of fanatically anti-American mullahs.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 27:20-27:33
“That Islamic revolution also gave Saddam Hussein the idea he could now attack the next door Iran.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 27:33-27:41
“That led to our embrace of Iraq because we didn't like Iran anymore.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 27:41-27:46
“That revolution in Iran also terrified The Soviets, they were afraid that radical Islam would penetrate into their southern republics.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 27:49-27:58
“It's one of the reasons they [the Soviets] invaded Afghanistan.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 27:57-28:00
“The Middle east would be much more secure if we actually would loosen our desire to control it.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 29:48-29:56
“We're not getting our oil from the Persian Gulf anymore.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 30:16-30:20
“There's no Soviet Union anymore.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 30:19-30:22
“Sanctions... crush countries but don't bring anybody closer to regime change.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 33:09-33:18
“Our idea of how to deal with this competition is to block China, to stop China, to hold China back.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 33:32-33:38
“We're not going to be able to hold China down.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 33:46-33:50
“We can improve our position... by improving ourselves.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 33:49-33:58
“For 20 years, we were never able to accomplish our goals [in Afghanistan] because we never figured out what our goals were.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 37:00-37:07
“There's a sense in the press that America's like a team. And the role of the press is to transmit the official narrative.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 38:52-39:03
“The difference in the United States is we act on our ignorance.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 39:54-39:59
“The real warmongers in Washington do not wear uniforms.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 43:00-43:05
“Our military has been configured by our foreign policy leaders over the years for global deployment.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 45:12-45:20
“It is not configured for defending our homeland.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 45:19-45:23
“It's for interfering and occupying and influencing coercively countries all over the world.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 45:25-45:32
“It's dangerous actually in the future to configure an army this way.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 46:08-46:13
“The United States controls effectively a big chunk of Syria and the people that are running it are all in military uniforms.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 48:44-48:52
“The State Department has no presence there at all.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 48:51-48:54
“Robert Gates teased Hillary Clinton once by saying, I have more money for my military bands than you have for your entire diplomatic corps.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 48:59-49:10
“In 1996, Boris Yeltsin had to run for reelection. Everybody hated him in Russia. His approval ratings were in the single digits. And Bill…”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 53:11-53:25
“We would never have had Putin had we not promoted Yeltsin by interfering in that election.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 54:14-54:20
“We're spending $800 billion a year to maintain our military establishment.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 55:35-55:41
“Most of the discretionary spending in our entire federal budget is not only wasteful but undermines our national position.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 56:14-56:20
“The Cost of War project at Brown has tried to quantify how many billions we have poured into this war.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 58:32-58:40
“Entire planeloads of pallets of hundred dollar bills were taken from the United States to Kabul and then to Dubai.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 58:40-59:01
“The money was not used to any effect; much of it was looted and stolen.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 59:00-59:04
“Sanctions are only effective if they're part of a larger project with a diplomatic reason.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:02:03-1:02:07
“Sanctions enable a criminal class; in Iran, the Revolutionary Guard profits from sanctions.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:02:53-1:03:01
“Sanctions are not only against military equipment, but they're against what's called dual use equipment.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:04:34-1:04:41
“Sanctions should be used very sparingly and they should have a limited lifespan.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:05:50-1:05:57
“There's never any death of a sanction. They don't wind down, they're just there forever.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:05:57-1:06:02
“We only use [sanctions] as a means of punishment to make people's lives worse.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:06:13-1:06:19
“Russia is some kind of an evil force that's always out there.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:07:11-1:07:15
“We are always looking for ways to pressure other countries to do what we want and become more like us.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:07:42-1:07:52
“The number one priority for people everywhere before political rights is security.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:08:02-1:08:08
“There is an enormous reservoir of goodwill for the United States.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:10:22-1:10:27
“What American interest now means is too scary.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:10:49-1:10:53
“We have so many common interests, including global stability [with China].”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:11:57-1:12:02
“Our engagement with other countries has increased and taken away the resources that we need to apply at home.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:13:14-1:13:22
“We are not abandoning the world by stopping to try trying to control it militarily.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:14:47-1:14:54
“The United States is, at least in a relative sense, going to become less powerful.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:16:01-1:16:07
“There's a growing constituency for [a less dominant U.S. foreign policy] out there.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:16:31-1:16:31
“Some voters will consider their candidates' views on world affairs in casting their votes.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:17:00-1:17:15
“You cannot separate a person's views about the world from their views about the United States.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:17:15-1:17:22
“People all around the world are going to be looking at the big powers and how their countries run.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:18:44-1:18:50
“If we want to win the world's sympathy, the best way to do it is to show them that we have a highly functioning society at home.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:19:05-1:19:15
“You can only do that by changing the focus of American policy from dominating the world to serving our own underserved people.”
Tulsi Gabbard and Stephen Kinzer Discuss U.S. Foreign Policy and the Cost of War | Uploaded January 10, 2023 | 1:19:18-1:19:26